"And I saw A city Coming Down..."
A Reply to Blinky: The Correlation of Zecheriah 14 to Revelations 21/"NEW JERUSALEM"

 

 

 

This reply is a study in and of itself of the city of New Jerusalem.  It arises as an extension of the Sabbath Study on September 6, 2008:

A different kind of Sabbath Study: "Sukkoth"

-Posted by Steve (Billy Steven Crider) on September 6, 2008, 11:06 am

 

 in answer to questions posed by, and observations noted by Blinky into the same study, one which dealt with the Feast Tabernacles, and sought to gain a better grasp of Sukkoth, as celebrated by Modern Jews in correlation to it's orgins in Scripture.  The Thread to that Sabbath Study Begins here: http://members5.boardhost.com/mtcarmel/msg/1220717160.html

 

Blinky's first response is Here:

http://members5.boardhost.com/mtcarmel/msg/1220722365.html

 

It is this response which prompted a more detailed discussion of the topic of the New Jerusalem as it applies to the Feast of Tabernacles.

In the post above, Blinky sought to Establish that in the Kingdom of God, the Temple would be re-established, Priests would offer again Daily Sacrifices before the Lord, and God would dwell in the Holy of Holies.   I can see the logic behind such, but Scripture both in Revelations 21, notes that GOD will DWELL WITH MEN at that timeframe, and while the same chapter notes his Tabernacle is "WITH MEN" it later also notes that There is no Temple seen in the city of New Jerusalem as "The Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the Temple of it."  Now Blinky ascribed Zecheriah 14 to these ideas he presented.  But Even Zechariah notes in Chapter 14, YHWH standing not in the Holy of Holies but upon the Mount of Olives, and going on to be crowned as a King in the earth, Physically.   I thought to answer that response by Blink in a single post, touching lightly on the correlation between the New Jerusalem as seen in Zecheriah 14 in Parallell to that of the New Jerusalem seen in Revelations 21, but did not succeed, and did not allude to the amount of details into the matter at that time, which I later would.  I tried to explain briefly that there are TWO Jerusalems Mentioned in Zechariah 14, and the first, (current) may likely practice again animal sacrifice, but the New Jerusalem would not do so.  I later in this discussion presented here note why.  While that attempt to address the Two Jerusalems of Zecheriah 14, more specifically the New Jerusalem, here http://members5.boardhost.com/mtcarmel/msg/1220744465.html Blinky noted his interest sparked, and continued to express his understanding at that time of the passage of Zechariah 14, and alluding the differences in his understanding between Zechariah 14 and Revelaitions 21...to a teaching of the Millenial reign of Christ.

 

The following is the result of that discussion which ensued from Blinky's second post into the topic to this timeframe. 

 I have Published it at this address: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ddh48qj_70wmvfwmdq

 

 

 

 

 

"And I saw A city Coming Down..."
A Reply to Blinky: The Correlation of Zecheriah 14 to Revelations 21/"NEW JERUSALEM"

 

 

Originally Posted by Steven "Benjamin" (Billy Steven Crider) on September 7, 2008, 2:54 am
on the Mt. Carmel Discussion Board at: http://members5.boardhost.com/mtcarmel/msg/1220774090.html

 

 

Blinky, nevermind, I may email you of it later, but for now, I don't think it needs to be addressed here. I will re-read Zecheriah 14, and note Clive in Speaking on the City on Zion, called it the New Jerusalem, and Contended with me when I offered there is no temple there. He told me that I was not referencing the new Jerusalem, but the new earth, the city in Revelations 21, is indeed called THE NEW JERUSALEM, but I did not contend the point further with Clive at the Sabbath study. Clive noted that the City of The New Jerusalem will come down to rest on Mt Zion, as per Zecheriah, either there are two cities, or that city will leave and return at a time when there is no temple in it, or there never was a temple in it, I will have to research the matter. It is entirely possible there is an alter and no temple. I can only concede at this point that I need to study the matter out, But I am certain of what Revelations 21 offers of the City, and it states quite plainly there is no temple there. I consider now the Genesis Study, and that there are TWO SEPARATE CREATION ACCOUNTS, ....this is not two tellings of the same event, this is TWO Individual, unique, although highly similiar events.   Follow the bird,   ...and the day of his creation...you will see this plainly when comparing the details.   The city in the land of Eden, in Genesis 2, is strikingly similiar to that of the New Jerusalem in Revelations 21. Both have a tree of life, both have a river proceeding from them, they may well be the same city. Okay...Blinky, I ended up studying this matter out to address your concerns here, just finished it as a matter of fact, likewise now it seems I can address the conversation I began with Clive in April. And it turns out, the matter is as I said it was, both to you here on this board today, and to Clive in April. Here is the answers to the issues you posed in your post here: http://members5.boardhost.com/mtcarmel/msg/1220744465.html In which you allude that Zecheriah indicates a temple in the New Jerusalem. I assure you, there is not, and by the time you finish this post, hopefully it will become clearer. I do see however, how you took the passage of Zecheriah 14 into the context in which you did, again, I was noting a broader context as well, to include the references to the city in Revealations 21. The City and Earth in Revelations 21, have no night, no day....but they have light, THE LIGHT is THE LIGHT OF GOD, much like the first 3 days of Genesis 1, before the fourth day when the Sun and the Moon and the Stars are created. I have delved into this much more in detail with Wendi in personal studies than here on this Board, but I allude that Genesis 2 the world, is at the same place as Revelations 21, with no sea, In Genesis one, the creator there is Christ, after having been given his new Kingdom. The counsel of "Let Us Create Man in Our Image" is the Father/Mother counsel to Christ, guiding him, as in Revelations 21, The alpha and omega makes a declaration..."BEHOLD, I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW" now he has the power to make green men with antennas, and Women with 4 arms...whatever he wants, He is after all sitting on the throne, and God, well, he is dwelling with Men at that timeframe. The counsel is from one(s) with experience to one newly performing a task. Something that is often overlooked in Revelations, the kingdoms of this world, are not given to single individual...they are given to TWO individuals....to "OUR LORD AND   HIS   CHRIST" to Our Lord, and His annointed one.... There is a mystery here, I can show you, but not in a single post, nor study for that matter. It is the Mystery of the Generations of God, contained within the Genereations of the Heavens and the earth. Generations being Plural. Note that the world in Genesis 2, is not created in 7 days, but rather in a SINGLE DAY. And contained in that single day, is the seven day creation. It has been a while since I have addressed this with anyone, but Revelations 21, is not THE END...it is indeed THE BEGINNING. As to feast days: "According to Deut 16:16, “three times a year all your males shall appear before the Lord your God”, the three occasions being the three major feasts of Passover (Luke 22:1), Pentecost (Acts 2:1) and Tabernacles. Tabernacles was the major festival in the Temple era following Pentecost and was often known simply as “the Feast” (for example 1Kgs 8:2; Ezek 45:25; Neh 8:14; and commonly in the Talmud). Josephus calls it “the holiest and greatest feast” (Ant 8.100)." (1) "Sukkoth, or The Feast of Tabernacles, was celebrated on the 15th of Tishri, the seventh month, as a “feast of the Lord” to give thanks for the produce of the land. On the first day of this eight-day festival, pilgrims brought the ripened tree fruit to the Temple. Lev 23:40 commands: “You shall take on the first day the fruit of goodly trees (LXX karpo.n xu,lou w`rai/on), branches of palm trees, and boughs of leafy trees, and willows of the brook; and you shall rejoice before the Lord your God seven days”. (1) ****************************************************************** Blinky, There is a Mystery here, tying Zecheriah 14, to Revelations 21. Before you can even begin to see this, you must understand that Zecheriah 14, is not "The New Beginning" Nor is Revelations 21..."THE END"... rather Reveleations 21, is "the New Beginning" and correlates to the world of Genesis 2, having no more sea, in comparison to a world in which all creatures are made "from the dust of the earth" quite opposite from than those in Genesis one, in which many including the fowl of the air of "that creation" (Gen 1) are formed from the firmaments, the water. Clearly two different creations of earth...not two accounts of the same event, but two entirely different events. The Jerusalem in Zecheriah 14:2 is not "The NEW Jerusalem," Though we do see the New Jerusalem in Zecheriah 14. Note it shall "be taken and the houses rifeled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity." Then in verse 4 we see a great quake witnessed by those on the Mount of Olives. I stated earlier about the new Jerusalem coming down to rest on Mt Zion. That Jerusalem, shall not have a temple, it is that Jerusalem of earthly origin, taken captive, prior to the quake in which there will be a temple. ** There will be a new MT ZION formed by the results of the quake, upon which the Comes down from heaven and there the NEW JERUSALEM SITS. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Note the feast in Zecheriah is that of Tabenacles. The topic of our Sabbath study. But our point here, is to tie Zecheriah 14 to Revelaitons 21. So... Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. "BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN" this is our first clue. You alluded to the notion of animal sacrifices, and to the prescence of a temple in Zecheriah 14 with references to the new Jerusalem. There were several different offerings and sacrifices during the feast of Tabernacles....

"These same Psalms were recited on every day of Tabernacles, the feast at which ripe fruit was brought to the Temple by pilgrims, and at which those pilgrims entered the Temple via the Ripe Gate. For this reason, these Psalms are one possible filter through which the healing of the cripple can be read and interpreted. " (1)


"example, John 13:29). At festivals, thank-offerings were obligatory: Those attending “shall not appear before the Lord empty-handed” (Deut 16:16). And further, “every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the Lord your God which he has given you” (16:17). In addition, the “sojourners, the fatherless, and the widows” were to be included in the festival (16:14). Therefore, a beggar could especially expect alms from those going to the Temple during a festival such as Tabernacles.
Peter and John are expected to have thank-offerings with them and they are expected to give alms. But they claim to have no “silver or gold”. Dunn thinks that this “representation of apostolic poverty is partly at least a story-telling device”.21 Others relate the reference to silver and gold to idol-worship, or think it must be understood on the background of 2:44-45, or, as evidence that the apostles’ power has nothing to do with money, a common motif in Acts.22 However, it is also possible that Peter is saying that he does not have the offering that festival pilgrims were expected to make. Beth Shammai held that the pilgrimage offering must be worth at least two pieces of silver and the festal offering at least one ma’ah of silver. Beth Hillel said that the pilgrimage offering must be worth one ma’ah of silver and the offering two pieces of silver (Hag 2a). If Peter is referring to this offering, then why does he not have the obligatory “silver and gold” as he goes into the Temple?23

At the anticipated ideal Feast of Tabernacles, everything in Jerusalem will be holy and there will be no more traders in the Temple (Zech 14:20-21). Significantly, Zechariah 14, was the hafterah read on the first day of Tabernacles (Meg 31a), Does the Peter of Acts 3 believe that such a time and such a celebration of the Feast have arrived? That this might be the case is implied in what he offers the man and in what follows.

Instead of giving him silver and gold, Peter says: “In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazaraios,24 walk!” (evn tw/| ovna,mti vIhsou/ Cristou/ tou/ Nazwrai,ou, peripa,tei, 3:625). It is tempting to suggest that Luke is playing with the word Nazwrai,oj as a pun on the “ripe” (w`rai,oj) gate. Be that as it may, this exact combination of words is found again in Acts only in this same context (4:10). " (1)



There is a daily Sin offering kept in the feast of Tabernacles, in this world, in this earth.
The kingdom of God, shall be established in the end of this earth age as it passes away, to herald a new beginning.
Note there is a light, "IN THE EVENING" Zecheriah 14:6,7, one which is to that of the light offered in the first 3 days of our earths history, prior to the creation of the Sun and the Moon and the Stars. This light, eminates from


5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.



but it is not dark either, this occurs after the dust begins to settle on the Day of the Lord, at the end of the day, in the evening, as the day itself is one which is a day of darkness in which there is no light in it, Darkness begins to fade in the latter at the end of that day, in the new beginning, at the evening when it is supposed to be dark, on a day when it has been dark when it should have been light, in that evening, it is light...where does the light come from?
It comes from the new Jerusalem, whose light in oppositon to the condition of the world IS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL.



Revelations 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like

unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

It comes from the new Jerusalem, whose light in oppositon to the condition of the world IS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL.


Revelations 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Now The Feast of Tabernacles does last for 7 days, IN JERUSALEM, but it lasts for 8 days to those celebrating Outside Jerusalem.

Now you have to read Zecheriah 14 more carefully, to see, there are no alters in the New Jerusalem, for that matter there are not any Canannites there either. First though, look at this correlating passage:


Revelations 21

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.



Now you see, there will be no temple there, but as you no doubt still struggle to place this into context, yet are almost there, connect the dots...

There will be no night in this city, it will shed light to the remaining world, it's light, unlike that of the world, will be clear, and the world will look to the New Jerusalem for light, and sustenance, as a river will flow from it, likewise as you noted, a penalty for those who do not go to pay their respects. See verse 25 and 26 in Rev 21. Now...look at verse 27, this places the perspective of Zecheriah 14 into context as to the temple, and there being no temple in the New Jerusalem. You see, sin will not be allowed to enter into that city, nor those harboring such.



Look again to the verses in Zecheriah which you referenced, those latter verses you noted:

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth,

neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie:

Zecheriah 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts:

hold on, were getting there...you see, no sin, the whole world will not go up to Jerusalem, but of those who dont go, all will not be in violation...as they will have representatives going in thier behalf...note more closely:

Zecheriah 14:
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto

 Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.



Emphasis here is on "OF ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH" keyword...on the first "OF".

Now if nothing that defiles can enter into this city, who are these representatives?

go back to Revelations 21:

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever

worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

These representatives, are the saints who inherit the earth, who rule with the lamb.
And there will be those who are not saved, until after that kingdom is established. They will not be allowed into that city unclean.

NOW...RE-READ THOSE LATTER PORTIONS OF ZECHERIAH 14...nowhere does it say there is a temple, nor does it say there is an ALTAR in the city of THE NEW JERUSALEM. NOT AT ALL.

What is said is...."the pots of the Lord's house SHALL BE LIKE bowls before the altar."

These Bowls as traditionally used in the Tabernacle of old, were not common items found in everyday homes...they were made of Gold if I recall correctly.
And these bowls were filled with water, with which was used for Cleansing of the priests...those who performed Sacrifices for others.
In Revelations, you see a set of Bowl Judgements. What is effectively taking place is those angels, holding the bowls of God's in which God's Annointed cleansed themselves of the duties of sacrifice for the sins of the people (these seven bowls belonging to the seven spirits before the throne, God's Annointed), so after these priests have washed themselves in these bowls, you have the remanant, the filthy water, and the angels pouring them out, are effectively turning the sins of those who were forgiven back into the world upon those who rejected grace when it was offered to them. And that is another study, into the 8 spirits of God, but our focus is to the bowls as they apply more directly to Zecheriah and the NEW JERUSALEM.

So we note these ceremonial bowls to have been an uncommon item in the populous, so in Zecheriah 14,
what is being said here, is the very cooking pots, the common items of this city, will be holy, and will serve to cleanse those who come into this city. And who comes...we already established it is those representatives of the families of the earth, those who rule with the lamb, this includes the to allude to the ministry of the 144,000, this includes they which are written in the lambs book of life, those families of the great multitude saved as a result of the ministry of the 144,000 in service to the Lamb. These rulers, they are not defiled, they are writtten in the lambs book of life, this grants them access into the city, and to the pots of that city...as there are no ceremonial bowls, and there is not an alter, for there is no temple, the pots, in that city serve in place of the Bowls used in the traditional Feast of Tabernacles, the pots "SHALL BE LIKE BOWLS BEFORE THE ALTAR."


There in that city, THE NEW JERUSALEM, is not anything that defiles. And there is NO SACRIFICE offered there, not from it's residents, not within it's boundaries.

 

NOTE ZECHERIAH 21 again:

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts:

and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein:

What is being said, is that these pots shall BE LIKE, Shall serve in the place of, in that city, bowls before the alter.
And it continues to say

"Those that Sacrifice SHALL COME and take of them" These sacrifices you mention, are being made outside of The NEW Jerusalem, not within it's boundaries, those who perform them, shall come to the city, to pay tribute, to honor he who sits upon the throne, To Honor the LORD, and while cleanse themselves in the bowls, they are not considered unclean of defiled so as not to be granted access, but rather as priests in Service to thier King.

You see, The New Jerusalem will be a place that offers healing to the world. Animal Sacrifice, requires Death, and death, is the curse created into the world by the fall of mankind in the land of Eden. You see, it started at the tree of life, and it heals there as well. That city in Revelations 21, correlates to the world in Genesis 2, it also, contains the tree of life, whose leaves offer healing to the nations of this world. (Rev 22:2) And in that city...well "THERE SHALL BE NO MORE CURSE" (Rev 22:3)

Moreover, as the pots, serve to in the New Jerusalem, "be like bowls before the alter" in effect replacing them, and much more commonly available, illustrating the abundance of YHWH's Mercy, it is unclear what "Sacrifices" will be offered outside of that city. There will be after all, those converted to the truth after the re-esablishment of God's Kingdom on the earth. These, do not change in a moment in the twinkling of an eye with those awaiting translation, or resurrection, but still walk in fleshen bodies, carrying within them thier sinful natures. Perhaps they instantly change as some notions suggest, but that is another study, for another time.

So there you have it, the correlation between Zecheriah 14, and Revelations 21.

It should be noted, all Males will be required to make the journey, whether Priest or not, and they will have had to have been cleansed prior to entering the city if they were not previously written into the lambs book of life, this would be those converts who come to the truth AFTER the establishment of the Kingdom. Such would be part of the reason perhaps for those who would not make the journey, and in essence denying themselves life giving rain.

Posted by blinky on September 7, 2008, 10:26 am, in reply to "Re: (3) The Correlation of Zecheriah 14 to Revelations 21/"NEW JERUSALEM""

STEVE , WHAT I CAN'T HELP BUT NOTICE WHEN REVIEWING REVELATION 21 IS THAT THIS IS OCCURING AFTER THE 1000 YEAR MILLENIUM. AND I BELIEVE ZECHARIAH 14 IS OCCURING BEFORE THE 1000 MILLENIUM. PERHAPS THIS IS THE CONFUSION AS TO THE VERSE " , AND THOSE WHO SACRIFICE ," SEE , AT THIS TIME , THE DEVIL HAS BEEN TAKEN BY , PRESUMABLY , MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL AND A GREAT CHAIN HAS BEEN PUT UPON HIM , AND HE SHALL DECIEVE THE NATIONS NO LONGER FOR 1000 YEARS. DURING THIS TIME PERIOD THE JEWS WILL BE FREE TO WORSHIP THE GOD OF THEIR FATHERS , EVEN THE LORD OF HOST , AS IN THE FORMER DAYS. AND THEY WILL DO SO , UNTILL THE 1000 YEAR TIME PERIOD IS UP. EZEKIAL 40-48 ELABORATES A LITTLE MORE ON MILLENIAL ISRAEL.. AS FOR THE NEW EARTH AND THE NEW HEAVENS , 2 PETER 3:10 STATES "THAT THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH A FERVENT HEAT AND THE FORMER THINGS SHALL PASS AWAY". AND AGAIN , ISAIAH 65:17 STATES THAT LORD JEHOVAH SHALL "CREATE A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH , AND THE FORMER THINGS SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED." HOWEVER ISAIAH 66:22 ALSO STATES THAT "THE LORD SHALL MAKE A NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH." BUT , VERSE 21 DECLARES "AND i SHALL TAKE OF THEM LEVITES AND PRIEST." TO ME THESE SCRIPTURES INDICATE THE PRESENSE OF A MILLENIAL TEMPLE IN WHICH GOD'S HOLY PRIEST AND LEVITE'S SHALL MINISTER UNTO HIM. AT LEAST UNTILL THE 1000 YR TIME PERIOD IS UP , AND LUCIFER IS UPON EARTH ONCE MORE. THEN HE WILL RE-GATHER GOG AND MAGOG LIKE THE DAYS BEFORE THE MILLENIUM (as wriiten in Ezekial 38-39) , AND SHALL MAKE WAR AGAINST JERUSALEM ONCE MORE. AS FAR AS REVELATION 21 AND 2 PETER 3:10 GO , I SEE THIS AS A POSSIBLE REFERENCE TO THE NEXT GREAT 'CATASTOPHY". MAYBE LIKE THE METEOR THAT CAUSED THE ICE AGE THAT KILLED THE DINOSAURS. AFTER WHICH THERE WILL BE A "NEW GENESIS." THEN AT THAT TIME , , A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH SHALL BE CREATED. AT LEAST THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING. OF COURSE THEIR IS ALL WAYS ROOM FOR ENDLESS SPECULATION AND DIFFERENT OPINIONS.

 

Posted by Steven Benjamin (Billy Steven Crider) on September 21, 2008, 2:55 am, in reply to "Re: (3) The Correlation of Zecheriah 14 to Revelations 21/"NEW JERUSALEM""

 

Blinky,

 I have examined the very passages you offer here, and upon closer examination they disagree with the point you try to make.  That you offer seems to allude to the blending of doctrines in effort to form an understanding.  While you finish by offering such is your understanding and there is always room for endless specualation and different opionions, such is true enough, but at some point one occaisionally runs into that which is undeniable, the truth.  And in so doing, specualtion ends.  You seem very familiar with mainstream doctrines of prophetic teaching, and very eager to understand how it all fits together.  Your zeal is commendable, and the fact that you recognize the importance of the events of 1993 in Waco, and the person and ministry of David Koresh as inspired by God indicates you are not totally blinded by the same mainstream doctrines of prophecy.

 

I should point to you however, that while your conversation seeks to take a commanding tone, you end by speaking of specualtion and just prior offer a statement filled with speculation to sum up your argument to my findings in this matter:

 

"AS FAR AS REVELATION 21 AND 2 PETER 3:10 GO , I SEE THIS AS A POSSIBLE REFERENCE TO THE NEXT GREAT 'CATASTOPHY".

MAYBE LIKE THE METEOR THAT CAUSED THE ICE AGE THAT KILLED THE DINOSAURS.

AFTER WHICH THERE WILL BE A "NEW GENESIS."


THEN AT THAT TIME , , A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH SHALL BE CREATED."

 

 

Often, even in the more devout denominations in the churches of the world, a trait unique to those most zealous in the same congreations is a love for prophecy.  Unfortunately, for many, they never venture outside thier denomination to glimpse the actual truth of scriptures teachings on prophecy, and are confined to what is shimmers of the grand picture of prophetic truth, still magnonimous in thier positions, more than many in those congregations are willing to deal with.

 

It was Isaiah 16 which you chose to quote

 

AND AGAIN , ISAIAH 65:17 STATES THAT LORD JEHOVAH SHALL "CREATE A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH , AND THE FORMER THINGS SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED." 
... Noting well the correlation to Revelations 21.

 

But what of Isaiah 65 and verses 20 and 25...does not verse 20 indicate an event commonly taught to occur during the 1000 year Reign of Christ by that doctrine?

 

 

 

 

I am well familiar with the doctrine of the Millenial Reign.  It was taught in the church of my youth, it was taught at the Bible College I attended in the late 1980's.  The event of Isaiah 65:20 is not from the old Genesis, nor some new, it is that which is commonly alluded to that doctrine of the Millenial Reign.  This passage in Isaiah 65, like Zecheriah 14, and Revelations 21, is discussion of the establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth.  The Chronology of the doctrine you cite, would place as occuring before the event you note to occur in Isaiah 65:17.  And in Isaiah 65:20, we clearly see an event from that same teaching you cite, occuring after the establishment of the New Jerusalem.  So how then, is an event which is noted to occur during the timeframe of the 1000 year Millenial Reign doctrine, which by chronology of the same teaching, occurs before the creation of a New Heavens and Earth, then in scripture actually occuring after such event?  One or the other is wrong...the teaching, or the scriptures...I side with scripture on this.

 

Now, as to Sacrifice, in the New Jerusalem, and such as it applies to Isaiah 65.  There will be no sacrifice in that Holy Mountain, none.  This dictated by Isaiah 65:25

 

 

 

This doesn't mean there won't be blood shed or death or even curse in that world.  It means such will not exist in all of YHWH's Holy Mountain.  You see, at the Sabbath Study at Clive's in April, both Clive and Catherine alluded to the passage of Zecheriah 14 as it related to David Koresh's Jerusalem experience, the Vision of 1985.  It was explained that the earth is soiled, and The New Jerusalem is a Holy city which cannot rest on Unholy ground.  The moutain the young man of Zecheriah 2 goes to measure, will not currently hold 144,000...the earthquake of Zecheriah 14 will change that, as a new mountain will be created by that earthquake, it will literally rise up out of the earth, and never having had man nor beast to stand upon it, it will be pure, sanctified, holy, upon which the New Jerusalem will rest.  The city will be holy, the mountain will be Holy, there will be no sacrifice in that city, nor on that mountain.

 

Now, you go on to cite in your reply of Priests and Levites being chose before the establishement of the Kingdom in Isaiah 66:

 

HOWEVER ISAIAH 66:22 ALSO STATES THAT "THE LORD SHALL MAKE A NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH."

BUT , VERSE 21 DECLARES "AND i SHALL TAKE OF THEM LEVITES AND PRIEST."

 

 

Part of me wonders if you note confusion as to Priests and Levites being chosen before the establishment of a Kingdom you note to occur at the end of the timeframe noted by the Millenial Reign doctrine.  Let's keep in mind that such originates with the Rapture crowd, many of whom denounce the person of David Koresh.  I am not saying that such ideas do not have foundations in Scripture, but note that they mostly have strayed from those foundations, and their logic is flawed.

 

Chapter 66 builds on 65, describing the events at the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth, detailing it's headquarters, it's timeframe of establishment and life in the same...The New Jerusalem.  Verse 13 offers it to be the place in which comfort will be found. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

Revelations 21 cites

 

 

 

Zecheriah clearly illustrates in chapter 14, that the bowls of the alter will be replaced by the pots in the city of the new Jerusalem.  Try going to Jerusalem today, and proposing to use a regular old cooking pot for sacrificial offering...see what you run into.  I don't (Think) you would be well recieved, and they are gearing up to rebuild the temple as we discuss this.  Such a suggestion to devout Jews would be a sacrilage.  Those bowls are a source of pride...made of pure gold.  If they could be replaced by something as common as a cooking pot...it only stands to reason some other customs are replaced as well.

 

 God's feelings on animal Sacrifices offered at that timeframe are explained in Isaiah 66

 

3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb,

as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered

swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they

have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because

when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil

before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

 

The Presence of God and the Lamb in the New Jerusalem

 

**Now I stated before that there is no temple in the New Jerusalem, actually there is, but even it, like the bowls before

the altar, are seen as having been replaced in Revelations 21, and replaced by The Lord God himself and the Lamb...We see also the Presence of both The Lord God Almighty and The Lamb in that city in both Isaiah 66 and Zechariah 14:

 

 

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

 

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it:

for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Note in Isaiah 66:6 we see the presence of a city, and "a voice" not "THE Voice", but "a voice of the Lord" the voice is from the Temple, the temple is not The Lord, but it is The Lord God Almighty and The Lamb.  And one of these voices is heard.

Now, as they are the temple, the lamb is actually the Glory of God, and the light which eminates in Revelations 21:23, and at Evening in Zecheriah 14:7. 

 

The earthquake before the arrival of the city, is the travail of Isaiah 66: 7, and Zecheriah 14: 4

 

Isa 66: 7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

 

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things?

Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation

 be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

 

Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,

which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in

the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a

very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north,

and half of it toward the south.

 

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains

shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake

in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

 Note in Isaiah 66:10 the Saints are told to Rejoice for Jerusalem, the same who offer Mourning...well prior to this arrival of the NEW Jerusalem...we see in Zecheriah 14:4, to this Cleaving of the Mount of Olives as New Mt. Zion rises out of the earth, prior to the earthquake which causes the same...we see the cause of those who Mourn Jerusalem, as the earthly city is destroyed...

 

1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

 

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken,

and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth

into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

 

Now before we look at those priests and Levites you noted, lets look at the offerings.

 

 Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of

all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift

beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an

offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

 

Did you get that...?  In the new testament Paul alludes to describe himself as a "living sacrifice." Go back and read that verse again...emphasis on the following question(s), We see those who bring an offering unto the Lord out of all nations for the feast of Tabernacles, and do so in the same fashion as the Jews of old...doing so "AS THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BRING AN OFFERING", so the question is two fold...Who are "THEY" who bring in the opening words?  And What do "THEY" bring for an offering unto the Lord out of All  nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts?

 

 "And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD"

 

So the kingdoms of this world gather against Jerusalem, and destroy her.  Then there is an earthquake and New Zion rises, as New Jerusalem comes to sit upon her.  The Lord himself wages war as this is coming to fruition, having stood on the Mount of Olives just prior to the earthquake.  His enemies are consumed by fire.  His saints, are comforted in that new city, in which the Lord God himself, and the Lamb are the Temple.  The Lamb is the Light of that city, the Glory of God is the Lamb, not the Shekinah which served so priorly.  The alter bowls are replaced by the pots of the city, the temple is replaced by the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb...the Caananites are replaced by Levites and priests and the offerings are replaced by people as opposed to possesions.

 

They who bring are the Levites and Preists, the NEW LEVITES AND PRIESTS.  Note the there is no more Caananite in the New Jerusalem...in the House of The Lord...

 

Zecheriah 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness

unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them,

and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

 

Note they that sacrifice in Zecheriah 14:21 are "They" who bring in Isaiah 66:20, these are also those who Dwell with God in that City in Revelations 21.

 

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God

is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself

shall be with them, and be their God.

 

 

and in Isaiah 66 we see them bringing offering to the Lord at the feast of Tabernacles in verse 20, it is of these whom the new priests and Levites are chosen, and who again are these in Isaiah 66?

They are they who escape the wrath of God to declare his glory amongst the nations in Verse 19:

 

Isa 66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them

unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan,

to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory;

and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

 

 

 

They will offer a first hand eye witness account of the event of the arrival of the Lord God Of Hosts, his Lamb and his Kingdom to reign from The New Jerursalem resting upon New Zion. They are the righteous, those who endured to the end, they are the saints who will reign with him in the new earth.  This battle is described in greater detail in Isaiah 65:1-12

 

 

1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not:

I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh

in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in

gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh,

and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;

5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou.

These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

6 Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense,

even recompense into their bosom,

7 Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD,

which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon

the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.

8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith,

Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my

mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

10 And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the

herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.

11 But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain,

that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.

12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to

the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did

not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

 

 

Now what of those Gentiles, saved to this timeframe who are righteous, who recognize the lamb, and have also been gathered to this region at the timeframe of this battle, what about those Caananites amongst them, as it is written In Zecheriah 14 there shall be no more Caananite in the House of the Lord?  What of those numbered as Righteous?  Well, remember Rahab? Remember Esther?  "Thy People shall be my people, and thy God shall be my God"....God is not without honor, and loves righteousness more than tradition.  Note Isaiah 65 speaks of those who survive this battle of verses 1-12:

 

 

Isaiah 65:

13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye

shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty:

behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:

14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,

and shall howl for vexation of spirit.

15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD

shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

 

 

Do you see it now? 

 

All the confusion, all the mixed bloodlines, a grand effort to cause God to be a liar, to make his promise void, to ascribe a cursed name to his chosen...that name..."Caananite."  But he knows his own, and he will deliver them, he will call them by another name, he will call them by a name no man knows, and he will choose them to be Levites and Priests. And it is this act which creates Jerusalem a Rejoicing from those who mourned her loss.

 

16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth;

and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former

troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not

be remembered, nor come into mind.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold,

I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

 

 

Now in re-emphasis of that stated earlier...

 

 

 

Re: (3) The Correlation of Zecheriah 14 to Revelations 21/"NEW JERUSALEM"Posted by Steven Benjamin (Billy Steven Crider) on September 7, 2008, 3:07 am, in reply to "(2) The Correlation of Zecheriah 14 to Revelations 21/"NEW JERUSALEM""

...hold on, were getting there...you see, no sin, the whole world will not go up to Jerusalem, but of those who dont go, all will not be in violation...as they will have representatives going in thier behalf...note more closely:

Zecheriah 14:
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto

Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

 

Emphasis here is on "OF ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH" keyword...on the first "OF".

Now if nothing that defiles can enter into this city, who are these representatives?

go back to Revelations 21:

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever

worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

These representatives, are the saints who inherit the earth, who rule with the lamb.
And there will be those who are not saved, until after that kingdom is established. They will not be allowed into that city unclean.

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